abandoned young blue tits

[seer]

Bought a ready made concrete bird box here in Germany before easter. Put it up on the monday night and to our delight Tuesday morning we had investigating blue tits. Watching them everyday build the nest, we were excited when they began feeding the young a couple of weeks ago. Earlier this week I noticed no activity to and from the nest and thought I'd missed the young fleeing the nest. Having noticed flies hanging around the nest the last couple of days I became suspicious that their was a problem in the nest.
I was right had a look and there is at least 4 young, 2 of which are much less developed than the others.

Apart from the possibility of one or both of the adults having been killed. What other reason would the abandon? And what should I do now apart from clean out the nest.

Do you think that there is the chance of another nest being built? I doubt it.

[brigitte]

Sorry to learn about the dead chicks. Could be several possibilities why the nest has been abandoned. Less developed young is usually because of stronger, greedier and more dominant chicks getting all the food. (Runty on Springwatch last year - good example)

Nest could have been invaded by predators, if the predators harrass the box often enough the adults may decide to forget it. Not sure what predators are around in Germany, but over here squirrels or cats constantly trying to get in, or a persistant bumble bee may upset the parent birds. Is your nestbox anywhere where other people could poke around out of curiosity? Although you may know not to disturb the nest, possibly someone else has been taking a regular peek without your knowledge.

Shame anyway, sorry again :)

[seer]

Later that day I took the box down from the tree and removed the nest, it didn't smell too good and was full of maggots. There were 6 young in all, 4 well developed (at a guess only a few days from leaving) in the nest proper and 2 on the edge (mcch younger only a few days old perhaps).

Today I have seen a couple of blue tits in the garden and they did look in the nest box. I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

A few days ago I had seen one of the adults taking food to the entrance of the box and on one occassion entering, but leaving with it. At the time I thought they were trying to entice the young out, but now I suspect they were already dead then which further mystifies me. We had seen a dramatic drop in the weather from mid 20's to around 12 degrees C during the day Maybe it was the cold?:confused:

[PiratesAhoy!]

Cold could have certainly been a factor, particularly as you mention it was a concrete nest box. I would advise against using them (use wooden ones instead) for precisely that reason).

Sorry to hear about all of the chicks dying :(

[birdsinthebox]

sorry to hear about the tits. exactly the same thing happened to me last year. I had 5 dead chicks of varying different development stages and felt so sad. Happily this year, my blue tits have again nested and are very hard at work feeding. I'm hoping for a happy ending this year. i have put a fat ball in a nearby tree and it is going down a treat! I'm going to have some fat babies!

[bt4]

Hi, I had a nest box with a pair of nesting bluetits in my garden. We have a cat who would sit under the tree but couldn't climb it because I had put a barrier about 6 feet up. Anyway, didn't see the parents since day before yesterday so I went up to take a look hoping they had just fledged without me noticing. Spotted two dead chicks before I fell off the ladder and had quite a bad landing for good measure.

Anyway, I'm pretty close to throttling the cat, it sounds like her presence might have been enough to drive the parents away? The only other thing I can think of is that there was terrible weather, heavy wind and rain, for about 24 hours just after the last time I saw the parents. Could this have been the cause? Somehow natural causes (ie non-domesticated killing machine) would be less upsetting.

Update: One of the parents just came back to check the nest. Very sad

Update: Just cleared out the dead chicks. 6 healthy looking fat little guys and 1 runt, definitely all alive 'til very recently. I'm an idiot for thinking I could have nesting birds in a garden with a cat. I feel dreadful.

[georgie]

I never quite understand why wildlife lovers choose to keep cats as pets.

I think it's fine for people to own cats, if that's what they want, but unless the owners take measures to reduce the predatory behaviour of their pets then I don't think they should entice birds (and other wildlife) into their gardens. The phrase 'lambs to the slaughter' comes to mind.

Am I right in thinking that most Americans keep house cats? - ie the cats aren't let out to roam. Or is that just not feasible for pet owners here?

[bt4]

Thanks ever so much for your useful comments georgie, really helpful.

[georgie]

Sorry bt4 - I didn't mean to upset you when you're down.

But I just get upset reading the catalogue of sagas which are similar to yours -and you are one of the people who obviously cares about your birds......

I have a good friend who gardens in an environmentally sensitive way and provides nesting sites and food for the birds. BUT, she owns three cats and makes no effort to restrain them from predating on the wildife and every day a succession of birds, mice, voles, frogs etc etc are brought into the house. Sometimes some of these poor creatures escape, to die elsewhere in the house and then the house reeks.... one time I made the ever so mild suggestion of fitting collars with bells on the cats, but she won't even think of that (apparently they don't like them!). Although even that might only save some adult birds, fledglings would still be easy prey......

[karenbee]

Hi All

I am very sorry to hear of your sad story. I will say to you what someone said to me last month. Don't feel guilty as you have done nothing wrong. I have 2 cats and my neighbour has 2 cats. There are also several other cats that roam around. I had a nest with 6 baby blue tits last month and also thought the worst. I was also guikty or repeatedly peeking into the nest. And yet - despite all that interference, the chicks were raised and flew away. I even saw 2 of the cats walking along the fence above the nest and also keeping guard at the bottom of the tree. so none of this put off the parents at all. I watched their non-stop to-ing and fro-ing to the nest with food. That was my first time with nesting birds and I am hoping they will return. So it was circumstances - not you. Good luck for neXt time :)

[bt4]

Hi karenbee, glad to hear your story. I guess it's not 100% sure that even under perfect conditions all will go well but conversely even under adverse conditions nature can be pretty resilient!
I don't think there'll be a next time unfortunately, I can't take the risk that the cat was in fact the cause of the abandonment and the same might happen again.

[Sahbster]

I have read tonight on another website that the pair return to lay a second clutch of eggs after the first brood have flown.

At present I have 3 live chicks and 4 dead ones somewhere underneath them. One of the live ones isn't getting as much food as the other two so I don't think it will make it either.

There are flies in the box when the mother isn't there, climbing all over the chicks.

When they have flown, or died. Should I take out the nest material as well as the bodies and give it a clean out, or will they re-use the nest.

This is the first year I have put a box up. It has only been up for about 6 weeks so didn't expect to get anything in it this year.

It has an infra-red camera in it, so I haven't been lifting the roof off to peek.

One lesson I have learned is to get some live food in. 20/20 hindsight vision.

[louise 1]

hi i just need some advice as i have baby blue tits a nestbox, the parents are usually in and out the box all the time but i havnt seen the parents at all today and im worried they have been abandond their babies, what should i do?, i feel so sorry for them the babies are hungry as they are pokin their heads up to the hole with their mouths open!:confused: :(

[PiratesAhoy!]

Hi,

Please see this thread: http://www.cjwildlifeforum.com/showpost.php?p=5223&postcount=47

From post 47 - Barbara Jane was in a similar position not so long ago, and the same advice will apply. If you're *sure* the nest has been abandoned, you can either try and hand-rear the chicks yourself, or get them to the nearest wildlife hospital.

Please consult this list for your nearest wildlife hospital: http://www.uksafari.com/wildlifehospitals.htm

[louise 1]

hi, yes i was thinking about rearing them my self, i was going to wait till tommor just to see if the parents appeared, but will they live with no food for that long? is it normal for parents to stay away too long? i dont want to take them in then the parents come looking for them,. if i do rear them myself how often do i feed them? and do i leave them in the box outside or bring them into my house? i just dont know what to do, thanks so much for replying, ive been at a loss all day:)

[PiratesAhoy!]

Hi Louise,

Have a read of the other thread, but basically young blue tits cannot be left for more than 6-8 hours really without food, except overnight obviously.

Again, if you're fairly sure they haven't been fed throughout most of today, then you'd better get them out of the nest box and inside. Although the parent bird would be giving them their final feed of the night about now, you can continue feeding them for a couple more hours, thus making up for some lost meals. Keep them indoors initially in a cardboard box, and if they're still nestlings, then try to construct something that emulates a nest box, such as a wide cup or bowl filled with soft tissue paper and covered with a hand towel or somesuch. Don't use cotton wool, as it can get stuck to nestlings.

I would feed them every 30 minutes to 1 hour, depending on their age and how much they're getting to eat.

I mention KayTee Exact in the other thread, that's the stuff I use to hand rear little chicks such as blue tits. Alternatively you can make something up temporarily, because obviously you won't have the right stuff to hand at this minute. Pets at Home do sell the Exact, although it tends to be the larger stores that carry it. Check around, but it can be ordered online if need be. RobHarvey.com sells it, see here: http://shop.robharvey.com/kaytee-exact-handfeeding-for-parrots---227kg-vhpr101-584-p.asp

You can obviously feed them live mealworms too - they'd be used to this in the wild, but not too many of these.

[PiratesAhoy!]

Also, whereabouts in the country are you?

[louise 1]

hi thanks so much, i am in humberside (hull) i dont know what to feed them? i dont have any worms or anything. and also how do i get them out of the box? will they bite? sorry if i sound daft but i want to do my best for them to survive, thanks again for replying:) :)

[PiratesAhoy!]

Read this: http://www.cjwildlifeforum.com/showthread.php?p=5223#post5223

Grab the nest box and bring it inside. Open it up and put the chicks into a cardboard box. They won't bite you, they probably couldn't get their beaks around your finger, and at this stage of their life their beaks are soft and underdeveloped. The worst they could do to you is give you a nasty suck :)

Food wise, well if you can get hold of some tinned cat food (chicken flavour is probably best), then filter out the meaty chunks, and mush that down, possibly in a blender or just with a fork, until it's really a liquidy consistency. Then you can feed this to them using lollipop sticks or the handle of a small tea spoon or similar.

I will post again in a few minutes with some more food suggestions.

[PiratesAhoy!]

3 Owls bird sanctuary have a bird feed page: http://www.threeowls.co.uk/birdfeeds.html

However, I'd be wary of using essentially bread, veg and fruit to feed blue tits. Their other suggestions are perhaps better - finely cut up raisins (soaked), or small bits of mince (has worked for others recently). Tiny amounts of ground up peanuts would probably work, but they're lacking in moisture so not really adviseable.

Cheese could also work temporarily, but small amounts, and the more 'mature' the cheese the better - as contains less lactose, which birds can't digest. No smelly/blue stuff though, just cheddar, for example.

If you have digestive biscuits, you could crumble some of them down, mixed with water until you have quite a fine consistency, but not too runny - kinda syrupy. This will also be quite nutritious.

Send me a PM on this forum (Private message - click my name on one of my posts, and click "Send a private message to PiratesAhoy!") with your phone number if you really need assistance, and I'll try and guide you over the phone.

[PiratesAhoy!]

You can also scramble an egg (no salt though) and feed that to them, or mash some Weetabix in the same way as digestive biscuit above.

[louise 1]

great thanks got them inside, 6 alive 1 dead, do you think thats why the parents left because of the dead one? only have dog food, they are eating it well, although its going all over the place, they have pooed quite alot do i have to remove it?, what do i do with them over night? how do i know if im feed ing them too much or not enough, thanks again loads for your help i hope i have saved them all and done the right thing. i hope their parents dont come looking for them now, im sure i have done the right thing, thank you;) :) :)

[PiratesAhoy!]

There could have been any number of reasons for nest abandonment - predator presence, lack of food, one of the parents being killed, etc. It's impossible to know.

6 of 7 is quite a good number to start with. Blues can have between 6 and 9 chicks in the nest, so probably only one dead so far. With luck, you can keep the rest alive to fledge.

Dog food is ok for the moment. It would be great if you could get some of the 'good stuff' though, the Kaytee Exact. I can't recommend that stuff highly enough - it's the business for raising bird chicks. Probably over half the population of blackbirds here owe their lives to the stuff, and a lot of great tits, robins, dunnocks, starlings, jackdaws, magpies, and a lot more beside do too.

Basically they should be gaping for food and beeping when you come near them. Give a high pitched whistle to signify you're about to feed them, that'll come in handy later and it's good to teach them the signal.

Remove the poo from the nest with a pair of tweezers - plastic ones by preference, but it depends what you have. The poo should be in a little membrane or 'sac', so it shouldn't go everywhere when you pick it up. Looking at the poo can tell you about the birds' diet and how their digestion is going. too much black is not so good - too much worms, etc. Brown is right, and there should be a little capping or a surrounding of white fluid, this is the 'urates', and there should be between 50/50 or 70/30 solids to urates mix. If not, don't worry, but there should be some white there.

For feeding, again use tweezers. You can use the same pair as long as you wipe them off after removing the poo. They should gape, and pop the food right to the back of their throats. You may see a little hole in the base of their tongues near the back - this is the oesophagus - don't block this with food or the bird will choke, but it's usually quite hard to do that, as they're good at swallowing and holding their breath while doing so. Adult birds aren't such good aimers sometimes, so nature gives them a little hand in that respect.

Give them a few more feeds now until about 11:00, 11:30, or whenever you go to bed. Feed them every 20 minutes or so if you can, just to 'build them up' for the night. Obviously make sure you get all of them - count the mouths and the food going into them.

If possible, get up quite early tomorrow to give them their first feed of the day - 7am if poss. Then continue feeding at 30 minute intervals, and you can stretch it to an hour interval during the day, but obviously keep an eye on how much they gape and how ready they are from food - you'll see the patterns.

If possible tomorrow, call your nearest Pets at Home, and see if they have Kaytee Exact. Pop into a chemists or a local vets, and ask if they can supply you with a small amount of 1ml syringes - these will help greatly in feeding the little tits.

[PiratesAhoy!]

Pets at Home shops near you: http://www.petsathome.com/storelocator/list-by-postcode/hull

[PiratesAhoy!]

Feeding using a spoon technique demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ne4v7Ojm1M

Using a dropper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLTib8uGDIw

[louise 1]

brill your a star, thank you so much for all of your help! i will prob need more help so i have sent you a PM with my e mail and phone number,, not so much a message but a load of questions lol, thanks again, speak again soon

[PiratesAhoy!]

No problem :)

One more thing before I sign off - when feeding them, keep doing it for all of them until they don't gape for the food any more. They'll tell you when they're full :)

Tap the little one on the side of the beak with the tweezers/syringe/spoon and hopefully he should get the message that food's there.

Good luck!

[louise 1]

hi again, i woke up this morning and unfortunatly another one has died, (the small one), another one isnt looking too well but gapes for food every now and again, the other 3 seem just fine at the moment, is there anywhere that would take them in for me? i dont think im doing a very good job!!! :confused: ,

[PiratesAhoy!]

Hi Louise,

Unfortunately the runts of the litter may have already gone too far downhill from yesterday's lack of food. You can definitely save the others though, you just need patience and persistence, particularly with the littlest one.

If you still would rather hand them over to a wildlife centre, there's a list of wildlife hospitals here: http://www.uksafari.com/wildlifehospitals.htm - see if you can find one that's an acceptable distance from you (doesn't seem to be any around Hull). Alternatively, try calling some local vets and see if they know of somewhere local that takes wildlife in, but DO NOT give them to the RSPCA - they don't have the resources to care for baby birds and will most likely put them to sleep.

Still, your best bet is to get hold of the Exact - this contains pretty much everything the birds need in terms of nutrition. You'll have a much better chance of success with Exact.

[louise 1]

ok thanks, i will try exact, will the birds be ok for a while if i leave them?:confused: :)

[PiratesAhoy!]

The birds should be ok for up to an hour for sure, perhaps a bit longer.

[louise 1]

hello again piratesahoy, you have been such a great help thank you, i was so worried about the blue tits i used the site you gave me, and a wonderful woman from thisk (2 hour drive from me) was willing to help me and take care of my blue tits, i dropped the remaining 5 healthy birds off at her house today, where she had lots of differant wild life there, she said although my birds had feathers she is going to put them under a heated lamp to keep them warm and that she will feed them live bait. i feel much better now i know they are with someone that knows how to take care of them properly, she said i should ring in a couple of days to see how they are getting on and that she will take my number to keep in touch. so thank god for your website i dont know where else i would of turned if it wasnt for you, and thank you for your quick replys hopefully together we will have saved 5 blue tit live, huge thanks again louise :) :) ;)

[PiratesAhoy!]

Quite a drive, but glad you've managed to find a solution. Glad I could be of assistance :)

Now I've got to tend to my current lot. "Barty" the crow who fell out his nest too early, "Rook2" the rook, who was starving to death at a vets place where they didn't know how to feed him, 3 starlings from someone's wall cavity (I rescued them with a goldfish net) that are just about ready to release, and "Jerry" the blackbird - named for Jerry 'Springer', as he keeps springing around the place. First he jumped out of his nest, then jumped out of my hands, then jumped out of the climber he was put in, and then he jumped straight into the fangs of a cat's mouth! Fortunately I was able to scare the cat into dropping Jerry, who had only minor puncture wounds (and a damaged air sac), and will be making a full recovery. Don't think I can help him with his obvious mental deficiency though ;)

[louise 1]

wow you have your hands full, all them poor birds, im sure you will do a fine job. yes it was a drive and a half but well worth it, thanks again i can settle now and at least i will have a good nights sleep tonight!!! i hope all your birds will be ok, i now kind of know how stressfull it is trying to look after birds that need our help and i only did it for one night, i thought i was gonna have a nervous breakdown i was so worried about them, anyway thankfully now they are in safe hands, take care i will keep you posted on my blue tits when i hear from them, ( well their new carer) thanks again louise:) :)

[peterjh]

I had a similar experience last year. I put up a new wooden nest box and blue tits were quick to check it out. There was regular activity for a while but then nothing. I left the box until October when I found 8 eggs in it. We can see the box from the house but saw nothing interfering with it. I cleaned it and replaced it but there has been no interest in it this year. We have had plenty of visitors to our feeders not too far from the box.

[adekjones]

We have plenty of cats, and rarely get a dead bird. We have the most birds on our bird tables than we have ever seen, eg 30 goldfinches at a time. Why? We site the bird tables out in the open so that the birds can see the cats coming.

[Mobee]

I can't put my bird feeders out in the open as I have a sparrowhawk that also comes looking for food in my garden. I have them in trees to give the little birds a chance to escape and hide.

[Jandy]

I can't help noticing that now and then there is a post that bears little or no relation to the thread (or even forum) that it's been posted in. The two posts above don't even mention nest boxes. Am I being way too picky?

[crissie]

Absolutely excellent advice here Pirates ahoy.
I admire the way you have advised on this thread in a way everyone can understand, you should be proud of yourself for all the good you do. :)

Yes Mobee, you don't want your feeders to become "the local fly by fast food outlet" for the sparrow hawk.

[emma bessant]

Hello!!! Its this time of year again and I am thrilled to say that my camera bird box has a nest with 3 eggs in this year (so far!!) the occupant is my dear Great Tit that has roosted in there all winter every night and i am so excited!!!! each morning there is a new egg and will keep you posted....one bit of sad news is that i go to Egypt a week on Saturday for 2 weeks so fear i will miss everything :(((((